A Conversation with Judge Ramon Maestas of the Bernalillo County Metropolitan Court

This piece was written for a zine, a small folded paper to hand out before Election Day. The printable, fold-over versions are at the end, in color and in black and white.

I recently sat down with Judge Ramon Maestas. Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham appointed him to Division 5 of the Metropolitan Court in March 2025. Before that he was chief clerk of the New Mexico Court of Appeals, deputy general counsel for the Second Judicial District Court and a felony prosecutor in the district attorney's office. On Tuesday he is on the ballot to keep the seat. I asked him why he chose to apply for the Metro Court.

Judge Maestas: "The key thing for me was I wanted to work with the pro se litigant."

Pro se means representing yourself in court, with no lawyer. This term and a few others are in the glossary at the end.

Ryan: "You did? That's interesting. Why?"

Judge Maestas: “So when I was deputy general counsel at the Second Judicial District Court, I handled a lot of pro se litigant complaints, phone calls and things like that. And I started really seeing that there are a lot of individuals bringing cases on their own behalf, really lost in the system, confused, they're not sure what to do, frustrated, mad.

“And I just saw that there was a big gap there. And I started asking how I could help, what ways could I help more, and that's really hard as a court attorney.

"When you're a court attorney, you're limited on the things you can do outside of court. You're not a judge, but you're still not supposed to be practicing law outside of court. And so that kind of started getting me thinking about it. And then I did take the job at the Court of Appeals as the chief clerk, and I saw that it continued. And so sometimes people who have attorneys at the trial level don't always have attorneys at the appellate level, and the confusion gets even worse.”

When he was chief clerk, his office sat next to the clerk's filing station, where a lot of people came to ask for help, and he was certified in the court's scribing program, taking down a litigant's words for them when they weren't able to write, or spoke mainly Spanish, for example. "So you essentially, like a translator, word for word, write down what they say," he said. "You can read the question to them and say, 'What's your response?'"

Filing at the Court of Appeals is a whole different level of drafting, he said. At the Metro Court a person can fill in the blanks on a form, but the docketing statement, the first thing a person writes in an appeal, is all in their own words, with nobody to guide them through it.

Judge Maestas: “So I did some scribing, but I just kept on realizing that there's this big gap in service to pro se. And I really wondered how I could make a change in that. And I thought on the bench is where I could make a difference.

“And it's not that you're preferring a pro se litigant over a represented litigant, but ensuring the transparency is there, that they're understanding what's going on, why it's happening, that they need to follow the rules, that they can get an understanding of the rules by going to self-help. And explaining my rulings to them, trying to lessen the frustration, if you would. Nobody really walks out of court perfectly happy except for the two people getting married.”

Ryan: "Hopefully."

Judge Maestas: "Hopefully."

I went on to ask him if he still felt limited on the bench in how much he could help. I tried to frame it from his perspective, from what I was hearing, and said it sounded to me like at least he was able to give the people who come into his courtroom the sense that they were being taken care of in some way.

Judge Maestas: "Or ownership, right? That they're able to do it. The thing is, I think it's been very fulfilling to me. ...

"And it's not whether or not I get the point across to somebody, but a lot of times that they're able to proceed with their case or defend the case if it's against them. Just really giving them an opportunity to go forward, I think, or to stop it. But just allowing people to do that in a place where they're not uninformed, if you would. Try to inform them of the proceedings and what's coming next or what just happened. Not what they need to do per se unless if it's an order.

"I find it fulfilling. And I don't know if I could do that anywhere else, and I know there are opportunities.

"But what I saw when I was at the deputy general counsel at the Second is kind of what I'm seeing now, and I'm able to address those issues. And in a sense too, being a judge, I'm still a lawyer. I like the legal world. I like dealing with legal issues. And so there are some of those things I just generally like. I love practicing law.

"I was a prosecutor out of law school for three years, and people talk about criminal law, especially DA and PD's offices, like grind work, grinding all the time. You learn so much in those areas, you see a case from the start.”

He got to see cases from beginning to end, he said, and came to understand that the prosecutor's office and the public defender's both have to exist for the system to work, and that you work with your opposing counsel whether or not you get along. Those three years were "a great way to start a career."

When a pro se litigant brings a case or defends against one, they're the ones who have to tell their story.

Judge Maestas: "We might ask a question or two to get them rolling, but I can't ask them questions that are going to help prove their case or anything like that. So that's like a weird thing. And you have to find that balance and just do the best that you can with what information is provided to you."

A lawyer manages a client, he says. A lawyer is the one who says no, we can't do that. A pro se litigant has no one to say it, so the judge says it. That the two sides may not like each other is not what matters to him. What matters is whether the thing one side says happened, happened. So if arguments get started, he stops them and brings them back to the question.

Judge Maestas: "The first rule of evidence is, is it relevant?"

Ryan: "Is it relevant."

Judge Maestas: "Yeah. And if it's not relevant, then it's..."

Ryan: "We're not going to waste our time talking about it."

Judge Maestas: "Exactly."

Ryan: "Yeah. ... And you're basically saying to what extent are you able to engage that? Besides just 'I'm sorry, we can't go there'?"

Judge Maestas: "Yeah, but again, a lot of that's patience. And seeing if they get there. Because also, you don't want to shut everything they're saying down, and then they just don't want to tell their story. So it's a weird balance, and I don't think there's a perfect way to go about it. You have to assess every situation."

I said that as chief clerk he had been the person who dots every i and crosses every t. And I asked him whether it frustrates him when the people in front of him arrive at such different levels of preparation.

Judge Maestas: "There are going to be all kinds of factors that come into play with the ability to tell your story. I mean stage fright, nerves, memory, I put them on stand. So now they're in a weird spot, and there's nobody asking them questions. They're just telling their story.

"So I don't necessarily get frustrated. But if I got frustrated, it's more about whether or not they try to get the help or whether they try to figure out what's going on after I've directed them to self-help, or we also give them a pro se litigants trial packet which is a packet to walk you through the stages."

Ryan: "Oh, so this exists, some kind of informational guide. Well, good."

Judge Maestas: "Yeah. And this is life. This isn't just in trial. This isn't just court, but you get people with medical bills. They see the medical bill and put it down and forget about it. I mean, it just happens.

"And that same thing can happen with taking a case to trial. They get the pretrial scheduling order. OK. Put it down. Maybe they put the date in their phone for the scheduling order deadlines and when trial was, and they kind of don't look back.

"And that gets difficult, and it could be either party, the person who brought the case or the person who is defending the case. And it is what it is though. But I don't find it frustrating in that sense. ... Not frustrated with them, just because they're doing their best for the most part, even if it's one of those individuals that put the deadlines and walked away. You just don't know what people's abilities are."

A judge tries not to have those feelings, he said, and if he does have them, he pushes them aside.

"And that's a big part of being a judge is you're acting all the time.”

Ryan: "You're acting all the time."

Yes, he said, because things happen in front of a judge that are emotional, sad, happy or frustrating, and he has to keep on going.

Judge Maestas: “You can't punish people for those things or even congratulate them for doing a good job. It is what it is. I mean, I've congratulated two parties for working together and trying to figure things out. But other than that, you don't really do things like that. It's just keep the poker face on and go, and be respectful about it."

He went on to say, “I think a lot of times we think, 'Well, there's the individual in the black robe sitting up a couple feet higher than I am. They demand respect.'” Some of that is the decorum a courtroom needs, “but at the same time, the judges need to respect the people in front of them.” A person who is not legally trained and rarely sees a courtroom “isn't worried about the repercussions of their actions and attitude the same way that an attorney might be,” and saying something to someone representing themselves could just backfire, he said. It does little to keep a courtroom running in a positive way, and whatever caused the disruption, he has to keep moving forward.

Judge Maestas: "Even when it's a non pro se litigant, so let's say it's a new attorney, younger attorney. ... They're learning too, and have their license. They're supposed to be aware of things, but you know when you're in a metropolitan court, whether it's criminal or civil, you're often dealing with the newer attorneys and essentially, though it's not your job description, you're building these attorneys. You are. That's part of it. And that's a beautiful thing too. I like that."

He has a master's degree in education and learning theory, he said.

"To see people grow as individuals whether they're a pro se or an attorney, I just think it's great. ... It's nice to see that people, even if they're lost or frustrated in the system, are trying and they're doing whatever they can, and you see people who are trying and they're still getting it wrong, and they apologize, and there's no need to apologize. Try again, or whatever it might be, but to see that development, I think it's very cool. ...

"Lawyers who've practiced for 25 years, they come across an issue, they have no idea what that issue is, and they have to learn it, and that's the beauty of the law. It's a continuing education forever, but just things change. I really like that. I love it."

Reflecting on the insight that a judge would have to suppress their emotional responses to things they see in their courtroom, I said, "I just didn't expect a judge sitting in the People's Court, the Metro Court, to be poker face, but inside proud that he can support good citizens just trying to get justice. Is that acceptable?"

Judge Maestas: “Yeah. I mean, not necessarily good citizens, just citizens. And trying to get justice. That's the basis of the Metro Court. It really is.

“And even in the criminal realm, the defendants are alleged defendants and so you don't know whether they're good or bad citizens or just citizens with a criminal case. You don't know if the landlord is good or bad or a tenant's good or bad, and it's just people are trying to get justice. Either proceed on a case or defend themselves in the case, and it's good to see people taking action. And that goes on both sides of the parties, whether you brought the case or you're defending the case, just trying to do something here.

“And part of it is, people can work things out. I'm not saying you have to go to court to work things out. People do that all the time. But if you're not able to work things out, that's certainly something that's available. Bring it somewhere. And that's so much better than alternatives out there.

“So it's just neat and you can see people really try or try to the best of their ability and you can appreciate it and sometimes you get some pro se litigants that are really good at what they — really prepared. And some that don't get it, but they're trying really hard to get it.”

He doesn't want to call that sad or great, he said, but it's neat to watch people trying to make things work out.

Ryan: “Yeah, that we have a system that supports some sort of recourse for them for justice. Yeah, that's great.”

Judge Maestas: “So that's what's been really interesting about being there and that's what I really appreciate. And it does get exhausting. Like you said, the poker face, you sit there and you're not to express those things. And you might issue some rulings that have some colorful statements in there maybe as to why they didn't comply or something. Not rude, but very legal heavy. And it's not that it's rude, it's that these are the things that were violated.”

Ryan: “And you're delivering those to other human beings.”

Judge Maestas: “But you have to do that. That's part of it. ... But it is great to just see people try. Or if not, explain how they have access to certain information and then watch them try.”

Judge Maestas: "So Monday through Friday, I'm a civil judge only dealing with civil matters. We do do additional assignments, like we all go on warrant rotations and things like that as well. But for general practice, for day to day, Monday through Friday, 8 to 5, I do sit. I'm on the civil docket, so my mornings are filled mostly with landlord-tenant cases, and then my afternoons are mostly filled with general civil cases. So any small claims cases that come through the courts of $10,000 or less."

“What happens every day, Monday through Saturday, is the Metropolitan Court holds custody arraignments,” he said. On Saturday mornings the junior judges take them, and he is one: in from 9 a.m. until 12:30 or 1:30 p.m., the misdemeanors first thing, “then maybe a five-minute break, maybe,” then the felony first appearances. “That way the people can be addressed and put on conditions of release, or if the state files a motion for pretrial detention, then that case gets transferred over to the district court.”

His mornings are three sessions of seven cases, about an hour each session, and he doesn't always know, he says, what's going to get pushed back or overlap into the next session. A nonpayment-of-rent case can be done in 10 or 15 minutes, or less, when the two sides have already worked something out and he is there to enter a payment plan or end the lease. A lease violation other than rent can involve many regulations and take much longer.

Judge Maestas: "People want to know how good of an attorney were you? What's your resume like? But being a judge, you need to be a good attorney, you need to be able to learn law and have an understanding of the law, but also, it's a personality. I've talked a lot about being respectful, expecting respect, but also being respectful, given the time. And so a lot of it is courtroom demeanor. ... Being able to work with people is huge."

If you're applying to be a judge and you make it onto the list, he said, you're clearly a good attorney and you have the resume.

"But I think sometimes what they're looking for in those interviews is who you are as a person and how you interact with people a lot of the time."

Ryan: "People skills."

Judge Maestas: "Yeah, and when I was asking people about interviewing, somebody said, 'Let them know who you are.' Because that's what's important. ... A lot of it is how you are, what your goals are in the day to day practice or what you're trying to do. That's important. ... It's not just about you being somebody in a black robe with the authority. Again, it's the people bringing their issues.

"A lot of the work is about your schedule and making sure you can hear the cases that are coming before you, and you might have to move things forward faster than people want to, but it's how you get that message across. I think that's a big thing, at least for my court.

"That's not for every judge, every judicial position either. That's going to change on every level, but if you're working with a lot of pro se litigants, I think that demeanor and understanding of what's going on and the ability to interact with pro se litigants, while also still ensuring that the law and the procedures are followed, that's the big thing. But how you go about it is huge."

I said it sounded like being a good judge is more than just having been a smart, savvy lawyer.

Judge Maestas: “Being a savvy, intelligent lawyer is going to be really helpful. You're not going to get stumbled on other issues. But even if you're the smartest lawyer in the room and you don't have that demeanor. And I think some attorneys recognize that, right?"

Ryan: "That it's just not in them."

Judge Maestas: "There's some that have considered it, but don't do it, don't be a judge. And that's — I think that's a decision that attorneys make at some point. And that's respectful. And so that's a big thing.”

Ryan: “Yeah, the demeanor."

Judge Maestas: “Thank you so much."

Ryan: "Thank you."

And I just want to say thank you again to Judge Maestas for his time and for allowing me to get to know a bit about who he is as a person and more of the personal side of what it means to be a judge on the Metro Court. And I wish him luck on Tuesday.

If you want to know more about his credentials or other publicly available information, feel free to check the links under Sources & Notes below.

Metropolitan Court. Bernalillo County's court for misdemeanors, traffic and DWI, and for civil disputes up to $10,000, landlord and tenant cases among them. Felony cases begin here too, with a first appearance, before moving to District Court.

pro se. Representing yourself in court, with no lawyer. About nine in ten of the people in Judge Maestas's courtroom do, landlords included.

litigant. A party to a lawsuit, on either side: the one who brought it or the one answering it. A pro se litigant is a party with no lawyer.

DA and PD. The district attorney's office, which prosecutes crimes for the state, and the public defender's office, which represents people charged with a crime who cannot afford a lawyer.

rules of evidence. The court's rules for what a judge may consider in deciding a case, and they apply with or without lawyers. The first test is relevance: does this fact make something that matters to the case more or less likely?

pretrial order. The order a judge enters in a civil case after the pretrial conference, setting what each side must hand the other, such as witness and exhibit lists, and the dates before trial.

warrant rotation. Judges taking turns at the warrant desk. Police need a judge's signature on an arrest or search warrant, and the court spreads that duty across all its judges on a schedule, so a civil judge takes his turn beside his own docket.